PO1 Mike Kipp (Navy SEALs, Vietnam Veteran)
“The only easy day, was yesterday.”
Calm, sharp, analytical. All these expressions could be readily applied to describe the individual who is Mike Kipp. The raw, business-like nature of Kipp’s demeanor served him mightily in combat where the deadliest of decisions have to be made completely devoid of emotion. The inability to divide oneself from the more feverish sensations of the heart is the difference between becoming a Special Operations warrior and not being able to hack it. Soundless steps, a steady pulse, a smooth trigger squeeze, lives eliminated... all matters of everyday business in bloodshed with Mike’s workspace being the jungles of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The common thread that we find in the lives of our special operators like Kipp, is the ability to work in the most fierce environments while maintaining a consistency in serenity and tranquility through violent action. This regularity in efficiency wasn’t just founded in Mike’s time in BUDS (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL School). He was thrown to the wolves as a youth, persevering in a broken neighborhood where toughness was a foundational element to survival. These common components became the mold of the man, an elite warrior who would find himself in the hotly contested Southeast Asian bush.
Mike Kipp committed himself to the ethics of our nation’s finest at a breakneck pace through two tours in a place that claimed 58,220 American lives. Just to give a bit of scope on these appalling numbers, the average life expectancy for a radioman in Vietnam is documented by reputable sources as being anywhere from five to thirty seconds. Now imagine Mike’s team being devoted to direct action for multiple tours in the darkest layers of space in a place that, at the time, was considered the most perilous on the planet. Throughout Kipp’s story, you will come to comprehend some of the severe realities of combat in a conflict where so much is still yet to be uncovered. Through the candid conveyance of war-fighters like Mike, we will be able to shed some light on those otherwise unknown expanses of the battlefield. We need more of these fearsome fighters to step forward and share their legacies, so we might grow in our understanding of the sacrifices made. But, isn’t this work about much more than just the battlefield? Kipp’s monumental, after-service accomplishments upon leaving the Special Operations community are a testament to the resilience, intellect, and emotional capacity required by our operators. Here’s Mike Kipp with an education from the jungles. We’d like to take the time to thank Joan from Labs for Liberty for introducing us to Mike. Labs for Liberty does an incredible job of training dogs and gifting (100% free to the veteran) them to deserving veterans all around the country. Their facilities are first class and they provide a phenomenal service to our war-fighters.
Where are you from originally?
MK: I led more of a Huck Finn type of life I would say. I was raised throughout the state of Washington and mostly in the Seattle area. I left home when I was 15 years old and did inter-island trading in the Caribbean. I worked on tramp steamers which most likely dealt with a good amount of contraband so I guess you could say I qualify to be a pirate (laughs). I did that for several years and then went into the Navy. I was a Navy Seal for ten years and then 8 years in and out of a hospital. I continued to work on and off with the CIA and various intelligence groups. I bounced around the world and came to Utah for several advanced degrees. I absolutely fell in love with Utah during my time here. When I decided to retire we moved back to Utah.
How did you grow up as a kid? What led you to leave home at 15 years old.
MK: My dad bought old homes and fixed them up to sell. I remember him doing that from a very early age. He was a WWII vet and had a very hard life during the Depression. He saw a lot of action in the Philippines and I would say he had PTSD although it was never diagnosed. He was with MacArthur during his time in service. My dad moved into a heavy gang area without realizing it. I was getting beat up every day as I went back and forth to school every day. They wanted me to join one of the gangs and I wouldn't. I remember it being a Friday afternoon when I was jumped by five guys. I went into a service station afterward and saw in the bathroom mirror that my nose was literally laying on its side. I thought to myself that I couldn't go home looking like that. One of the dumbest things I have ever done was to just pop it back into place myself. I almost fainted from the pain. It was less than a week later that I decided I had had enough of that. I found out who the leader of the gang was that had the worst reputation. He was five years older than me if I’m remembering right. I walked up to him and he wanted to know what I wanted. When I sought him out, I thought to myself that I would either put him in the hospital or kill him. I hit him as hard as I could and he immediately fell back, smacking the concrete.
While he was laying on the ground I jumped in the air on his chest and broke several of his ribs with my knees. I pummeled him until he was totally unconscious and then stood up to ask who was next. Everyone left me alone after that (laughs). It was a crappy neighborhood and I decided to get out of there. When you’re in an area like that you have to establish yourself in the pecking order. My dad and I were having some major confrontation issues because of my attitude at the time, though. I asked him, “What if I just go into the Merchant Marines?” He replied, “Well, if you can get your seaman’s license and they’re dumb enough to hire you, I will sign the papers.” I went down the next day and wandered around the piers for about four or five hours. It was after Thanksgiving and just before Christmas I would go down to the docks and talk to the guys.
There were none that wanted to hire a 15 year old kid. I learned that there were certain positions that had to be filled before they could head out to sea, though. One of the positions that had to be filled was that of a baker. I had some classes that I had taken in baking during high school because that was where the girls were (laughs). It gave me enough credentials that when I talked with the First Mate he took me to the Captain. They were three days behind schedule on hiring everyone and they needed to ship out. The Captain asked me if I wanted a job as a baker. He asked for proof and then told the First Mate to take me to the Union Hall to get the paperwork I needed. My folks would have to sign for me to work. I went to the Union Hall because at that age I needed a Captain’s signature stating he was willing to hire me. They gave me the paperwork to take to my parents and my mom was not very happy about it at all (laughs). My dad signed and I went back to the Union Hall to get my seaman’s papers. I went to the Captain and he told me to be at the ship at 6 a.m. the next morning. I left that next day and didn’t come home until three years later.
“I found out who the leader of the gang was that had the worst reputation. He was five years older than me if I’m remembering right. I walked up to him and he wanted to know what I wanted. When I sought him out, I thought to myself that I would either put him in the hospital or kill him. I hit him as hard as I could and he immediately fell back, smacking the concrete. While he was laying on the ground I jumped in the air on his chest and broke several of his ribs with my knees. I pummeled him until he was totally unconscious and then stood up to ask who was next. Everyone left me alone after that (laughs).”
What was that like doing that job?
MK: Steamers only make money when they are at sea, so if you want to have time off then you just call it jumping ship. You would just tell them that you were staying on shore. I had enough experience by then that other ships would hire me. I didn’t want to stay a cook and I decided to shift over to a deckhand. There are a lot of storms that occur in the Caribbean and you have to hook up life lines. I would have a belt hooked to me with a couple of safety lines and my job was to try to tie the cargo down. I had a friend that worked in the engine room and he asked me if I would want to become an oiler. I thought that sounded better than being on deck always cold and wet (laughs). The old ships had a catwalk up above that had pistons that had to be oiled every six hours. I was small enough that I could fit up on the catwalk and reach them. There was all this heavy machinery working away down below you.
The times that I was out to sea there was always either a very serious injury or someone getting killed. They didn’t have the rules and regulations they do today to keep you safe or from getting killed. You were considered to be in international waters and there weren’t really any laws. We would get caught up in squalls and if you weren’t careful you could be easily washed overboard. It’s hard to explain how big some of the moving parts are on the old ships. Cranks, rods, and what moves the prop was all open. This was back in the 60’s that I was working these ships. I bought a brand new sports car for $3,500 in the 70s and in the 60’s it would have cost just $1,200. When I came back I was making so much money that I had $10,000 in my pocket. That set the precedent for my next career. If there was ever a dangerous job I was the first one to raise my hand.
I came back three years later to the States and found the anti-war protests going on. I really didn’t recognize America as my country. I came back and was seeing the racial conflicts and they didn’t make sense to me. We pulled into Gulfport, Mississippi and I had never been in the deep south. I had a couple of friends that had been raised there. I said, “Hey, you guys know this area very well?” They said, “Yeah.” I asked them if we could go out together and they could show me around. The one guy told me I was the dumbest white guy he had ever seen. He said, “We ain’t going in no white joints and you aren’t going in any colored joints.” I didn’t know what he was talking about until I got there. After that, I decided my time in the Merchant Marines was over. Once I got back to the states things were so strange because of the racial tension and peace rallies. I didn’t recognize the country at that point. I went into the military with the intent of being on a SEAL team. When I started training there were a little over 500 in my class and months later it was a class of three that graduated. The very first day we lost about 300 people who just couldn’t cut it.
What do you remember about that training?
MK: There is no accurate way to describe being cold, wet, totally covered in sand, and being mentally abused in the worst way possible. The instructors would randomly come up and put their hands on you as well during training. There were many times you went without sleep. I’ve talked with doctors about the sleep issue and they have told me there is no way you can go beyond three days without sleep. I can tell you that you can go seven days by catching a few moments of sleep here and there. You become so delirious though that you start hallucinating. The physical activity purposely takes you close to hypothermia. I remember swimming the Olympic size pool and having to learn to stay underwater the whole length of the pool. I was allowed to come up for one breath and I learned how to hold my breath for extended periods of time. I’ve watched movies where they try to show the training. There is no way to accurately portray these things.
I graduated and went into the teams then headed to jump school. I deployed and came back only to go to more schools. I became a Master Diver and went to HALO (High Altitude Low Opening) School. My highest jump was 32,000 feet which is right on the edge of the atmosphere. It’s right at 60 degrees below zero and I remember wearing these old WWII fleece lined suits. I was still freezing but at least able to survive the col. You wear those fleece lined suits because they are flexible enough to let you still pull the rip cords. You have oxygen and you’re way above the clouds. The stratus clouds top out right where we jumped and I remember falling right through those. At that time it took 500 feet for a chute to open and completely deploy. You had two altimeters and you’re falling at an average of 120 mph. You pull when the first altimeter hits 700 and you don’t have much leeway. The landings weren’t supposed to be too hard and if you did it right, the chute would just prop you up so you could walk out of the fall. If you’re not careful you could land on your butt and break your tailbone though.
What was it like on the ground during your deployments?
MK: I was anxious when I deployed but I don’t remember being outright scared. When I think about some of the things I was asked to do now it seems so strange to me. My response was always, “Sure, no problem.” I was one of the guys that did a lot of operations with the CIA. A SEAL team in the military is what they call “direct action.” Your assignment was to go in and create hate and discontent. We called it “taking people out.” It could be a single individual or a whole faction and our job was to eliminate that target. I saw a lot of action. I would go into areas where the enemy slaughtered everybody and we’d be doing a search and destroy operation looking for the people that did that. If you take certain missions that are highly classified you become a non-entity in the system and so I had no real identity for awhile.
What were most of your missions related to in Vietnam?
MK: Sometimes we were asked to do reconnaissance missions and during one of them I had to call an airstrike into my own position. When we were first asked to go, the mission was to locate a Surface to Air Missile (SAM) site. It was located in an area called, “the triangle.” Vietnam is shaped like a triangle where all three countries (Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia) meet. Officially, we’ve never had anybody in Cambodia or Laos but this was where we worked all the time. We actually located three SAM sites on this particular mission. They knew one of the sites was there because they had shot down several aircraft but they didn’t realize there were three of them. There were two of them that were heavily guarded and we submitted the coordinates so those could be taken out. The other one was lightly defended and I radioed that we would take that one out ourselves. That was a big mistake. I know my commanding officer was probably thinking, “What the hell?” We killed all the enemy and destroyed the SAM (Surface to Air Missile) site.
If I would have thought about it before I offered my team to take it out, I would have realized that they don’t guard those sites without a lot of troops (laughs). We were going to our primary pick up point and were cut off by a cohort of North Vietnamese Army. We got in a small fire fight and set up some booby traps to ensure they wouldn’t make it out of the area. We decided to go to our secondary pick up point and were hit by another troop. We now had close to a hundred enemy chasing us and there were only five of us (laughs). We rarely ever had more than three pick up points and when we went to the 3rd pickup there were more enemy there too. We returned and there was a ridge on both sides that the NVA were running across. We didn’t want to go down in the valley because we knew we’d increase our vulnerability to fire superiority. The jungle was nasty terrain to run through.
We hit a point where we had to maneuver into a box canyon and there was a big downfall of teak. We hid behind it and had all these RPGs exploding around us. They were flanking us on both sides and we knew it wouldn’t be long before they surrounded us. I radioed for an airstrike. There were a couple of F4’s in the area and the NVA saw them scream by. The enemy stopped firing when they saw them. They had an idea of what the F4s were going to do. The pilot said they couldn’t do the drop and at that point I started swearing at him (laughs). They patched me through to the pilot on the radios. We were in a box canyon, as I mentioned, and the pilots wanted to drop laterally. He said they would have to drop over us and they were carrying fire, which meant they had napalm (an incendiary mixture of a gelling agent and a volatile petrochemical) as a part of their ammo load. Each plane had four of those canisters and I told the pilot it was my call. I told him to drop them on our position. He told me to repeat myself (laughs) and I confirmed what I had just said. They flew around and peeled off to come in on a gun run.
The firing stopped because they knew the planes were coming in on a firing run. We weren’t the only ones who knew what they were carrying. It was about that time that one of our guys mentioned that there were vines which ascended up a small slope. It wasn’t a cliff because it was a slight incline but it seemed to be enough for us to escape the napalm. I ordered the guys to start climbing. I saw the first two canisters hit and then I started climbing. A couple of guys reached down to pull me up over the edge just as the entire valley was engulfed in napalm. The flames shot up and over us but we were in the dead zone just below it. They took out pretty much all of the enemy on the two ridges with the eight canisters of napalm they carried. That lit up an area about 150-200 yards wide.
Did you think you would survive?
MK: I don’t think I was thinking anything at the moment. The part of that mission that amazed me was when I was pulled up over the edge of the slope. I rolled over onto my back and saw this huge sheet of fire roll over the top of our position. It was instantly so hot that I got seared a bit. As soon as it extinguished itself somewhat, we were able to move and radio for a pick up. It was at that time that they started doing the body count. Command wanted to credit me with this huge body count of a couple hundred NVA because I called in that airstrike. I told them, “You shouldn’t credit me for being stupid but you should credit the pilots for pulling our ass out of the fire.” (laughs)
What was it like fighting the NVA?
MK: The NVA were well trained and had been fighting since the Second World War. The original agreement with Truman was that the Vietnamese would be guerrilla fighters. We would supply them and if they needed additional training that would be done. They would be supplied to fight the Japanese. Before the war, Vietnam was Indo-China and a French Colony. When the war was over the French wanted it back as a colony. Truman gave it back to them. The French have never been a very good ally (laughs). The Vietnamese had busted their butt for us and we had broken our treaty with them. When we gave it back to the French that led to continued war. There was a battle in 1958 and we had just finished with the Korean War. The French were nailed to the wall in Vietnam and there was one particularly big battle where the French lost a regiment of soldiers.
The Vietnamese had brought in heavy artillery by taking it apart and bringing it through the jungle. They annihilated the French and the Vietnamese got their country back. It was during this time everyone was afraid of the Cold War and the threat of Communism. When the Star Treaty happened Mao started working with Russia and Communist China and it was a big red flag for the state department. The southern half of the country has always been a different country even though it was one country geographically. The people speak the same language but how they do commerce along with everything else is completely different. Mao had the North and we went in with Green Berets to shore up the south to teach them.
When I was in the teams, I helped with the Navy’s classified development center in China Lake. There were several things that I would be involved in where I would get invited to assist them. I worked on a number of different projects with them. We developed a communication system for our operations with miniature submarines. That was pretty cool. We looked at the surface tension of the water and the density of it as a submarine moved through the water. We could broadcast with an ultra-low frequency and we could then have it switch over to a high frequency. The transmission could then be caught as it broke the surface of the water and it worked phenomenally. There was quite a bit of science involved with it. At the same time, we came up with burst and flash technologies too.
“Flash technology” meant how fast the transmission was pushed out. They could burst a bundled transmission in a milli-second and have it done that way. It was more effective they thought so the one that Fred and I came up with wasn’t used. I received six of my patents through them and did work on the big boomer boat with the sound absorption material. They tracked the trident submarine which is about 450 feet long. The pressure hull on that particular submarine is probably about the size of a WWII era Aircraft Carrier and most of that is underwater. They have a sail that is another two stories high for a total of seven stories high. That displaces a lot of water you can imagine. When you are trying to track them with sonar or any other type of listening systems it’s virtually undetectable. You could feel the submarine pass by you but you wouldn’t be able to pick it up with any type of electronics. That holds true still today.
The way they track them today is by an algorithm that monitors and tracks them through the ocean. They could have a general idea where it is in the ocean and use a satellite to track them. If you don’t know about where they are at you will never find them (laughs). The miniature submarines are about 40 feet long and they have a hull that is pretty small. When we were testing the material they would use the helicopter dip sonars. They had two of those and two destroyers with advanced sonar. We would go through a lane 300 yards wide and they couldn’t detect us. They would keep lessening the width of the lane until it was at 50 yards wide. They still couldn’t track it without any interference and so they had us tow a buoy. They knew the length of the drag and the buoy and could tell where we were but couldn’t find us due to the absorption of the paneling on the craft.
Can you speak to the history of the SEAL teams?
MK: John F. Kennedy felt there was a need for a group that could operate on the sea, land, or air. That is basically the acronym for a SEAL team. The SEAL Team was formed out of the UDT teams in 1962 and by 1967 the war was going really hot and heavy. I got there in 1969 on my first tour. The UDT Teams and SEAL Teams were doing essentially the same jobs. There were two SEAL Teams and odd numbers were West Coast and even numbers were East Coast. Each team had a contingent of what was supposed to be 100 operators. I never saw them have that many. We weren’t just in Vietnam at the time.
We operated all over. We also had jobs with NASA for picking up the guys on Mercury and Apollo. I was injured and left in 1980 and then in 1983 they converted everyone over to just SEAL Teams. Everybody in that community traces their roots back through the demolition teams though. I went down and visited with the master chief of SEAL Team 1 and there are pictures along all of the corridors of guys I know. I asked him about those pictures and why they were hanging there. He told me that they honor their roots and still taught all the tactics that we had learned. It was pretty cool. They gave me a lifetime membership to the SEAL Team Association a short time after that.
When you were a subcontractor working with the CIA what were you doing?
MK: They (CIA) would ask my opinion on different things due to the intel that I had. It was a number of years ago that our relationship with Germany wasn't what we wanted it to be. We needed to improve that relationship. The State Department does not like going into a meeting and being surprised. I would do a lot of things as a consultant for the government. They knew that Raytheon had a massive contract and that they were developing an airplane with Germany. I was asked if I would be the chief engineer on that job and told them I would. I asked what they wanted and part of the actual job was to let my assistant do the engineering work (laughs). I was actually working for the State Department in a different role. My assistant was doing the day to day work. My job was to negotiate with the German government and say, “Here is where we see the difficulty. The U.S. needs this and you are needing something. There is a misunderstanding in this area.”
I would help them negotiate what they were needing done. This would help them come together so they could have a meeting. When they did come together for their meeting after three days of negotiations we would have reached a wonderful new trade agreement (laughs). That was what I had been doing for that year and a half. I would bring them closer and closer together on what would work for the two. I would just tell them where they were at and ensure they didn’t screw up negotiations. My job was to be the quiet guy in the background and be the negotiator. It was always give and take plus some common sense. I did that for quite awhile.
Did you work with any other Special Operations groups overseas?
MK: I was never attached to any Green Beret teams overseas but they did have “A Bases” there and I would go in and grab a meal or restock my supplies. Occasionally I would help them out in firefights if they were getting hit. They had a different mission since this was to go in and control and entire sector. I thought their job was harder in many ways since everyone knew where they were (laughs). We were always not wanting anyone to know where we were at. We had the typical friendly rivalry but also a lot of respect for them. They would always welcome us into their bases.
We would give them intel on what we had been seeing along with what type of action. We would brief them on things happening outside of their sector. I’ve spent the last several years working with Special Forces and I’ve been made an honorary member of the Special Forces Operations Association (Green Berets). I’ve been working on getting laws changed so that we could receive better care through the VA hospital. Typically a claim takes about 18-24 months and now we are down to nine months on Special Operations guys. It’s a pleasure to work with those guys.
When you were in Vietnam, what was it like losing friends and fellow Special Operations brothers psychologically?
MK: You don’t get over losing your brothers overseas. There is no way to describe how close a bond you make with the team. It isn’t a “normal” combat mission per se. You’ve trained together and not just for months like in some mainline units, but for years. It’s closer than a brotherhood and when you lose someone, it's usually in an ugly way. If affects you for the rest of your life. I remember all of them and how they were killed. One of them that I remember the most wasn’t even one of our guys. We were on a mission on the peripheral of the jungle doing some surveillance work. I watched an Army squad walk right into an ambush. The communications during that time were not joint communications. We had no way to contact them. We knew they were walking into an ambush. I had radioed to request for support and we were told that our mission was too important. We watched all those guys get slaughtered. I swore to myself I would never let that happen again. I promised myself we wouldn't even ask if we could help but would just react. We were watching a village a few months later that we know had been heavily infiltrated. They had some pretty significant armament set up around the village. We were watching it to get intel and set up an operation.
I watched this squad of young Army soldiers and it was obvious that the leader was junior enlisted. He was acting like he was walking in the park on the top of a rice patty on a berm and he was totally silhouetted which is never good. I looked at my guys and told them I wasn’t going to let the same thing happen again. I left a couple of guys in the woods with radio comms. I took a couple of other guys and started running down the hill to let them know they were going into an ambush. We were a group that had been trained to do everything with stealth and here we were trying to get these guys’ attention by being as loud as possible. We were yelling, screaming, and making all the noises (laughs). We got about 50 yards from them and one of their soldiers turned to the group to tell them someone was yelling at them. They stopped in their tracks and fortunately the guys in the jungle were able to make contact.
They told us they had some gunships to come over and watch our six. I ran up to the top of the berm and told them to get the men into cover because they were about to hit a trap. I didn’t even get the word “trap” out before the NVA opened up on us. There was a guy in front of me that took about four or five slugs which completely threw him off the berm. My guys immediately started laying down suppressive fire. The guys in the jungle radioed the gunships and they annihilated everything. We returned fire and several of the Army’s soldiers were casualties. I remember I went over to check on a junior Lieutenant who’d been shot up badly. I remember cradling him on my lap and he was asking for his mother. He had been shot in both lungs. I don’t remember how much longer I stayed there. One of the guys on my team finally grabbed me by the shoulder and said, “Mike, we are on a classified mission and we have to get the hell out of here.” The gunships that had come over had radioed for a medevac. We faded back into the jungle. What always bothered me was that I never knew what that guy’s name was. I was covered in his blood and held him while he died but I don’t know his name.
“I remember I went over to check on a junior Lieutenant who’d been shot up badly. I remember cradling him on my lap and he was asking for his mother. He had been shot in both lungs. I don’t remember how much longer I stayed there. One of the guys on my team finally grabbed me by the shoulder and said, ‘Mike, we are on a classified mission and we have to get the hell out of here.’ The gunships that had come over had radioed for a medevac. We faded back into the jungle. What always bothered me was that I never knew what that guy’s name was. I was covered in his blood and held him while he died but I don’t know his name.”
How does that affect you long-term?
MK: I didn’t know it at the time but I’ve since realized I have a pretty good case of PTSD. I think I handle it pretty well, though. I’ll get up in the middle of the night and wander around and check the perimeter of the house once in a while. I know that Utah is a pretty safe area but it’s a habit. I will have moments of depression and compartmentalize that depression. I try to put it in the back of my mind. I did a clinic that was twelve weeks long in which they had us do assignments. One of the assignments was what was known as a stressor test. I either misunderstood or they gave out the info in a manner that confused me. They wanted me to list three different things that had been bothering me. The next time we met I was definitely on edge.
I told the instructors that I had people that tried to kill me in a lot of different ways but never like this (laughs). They wanted to know what I meant. I told them that they wanted me to go through and remember in detail instances where I’d lost really close friends. I told them that it didn’t help at all. They actually apologized and said that wasn’t what they had in mind. I told them I would do what they asked but not that. They did give me tools that helped by the time the sessions were over. I’ll have really weird things pop up from time to time in my head. There were a few months ago I was sitting in church and people were singing. They were singing and I was seeing blood like everyone in the congregation had been mauled. I just put my head down and knew it wasn’t going to be a good day. I’ve just figured out how to handle it. I went for a walk in that particular instance. It’s not like those memories are ever going to go away. I’ve learned to live with them.
How did you see the Vietnam landscape over the years while you were over there?
MK: I was in the highland areas, the triangle, and the delta. There were times I was called out of Vietnam to do missions in other areas. There were missions in Africa, the Middle East, South America, and places I can’t mention here. There were certain parts of Vietnam where there was a triple canopy. This meant that there was a layer of jungle, another layer, and another layer of jungle. It’s always twilight there. The U.S. forces normally felt very uncomfortable about being in the jungle. They would usually say things like, “Charlie is comfortable being in the jungle.” My thought was, “No, he’s not (laughs).” Nobody liked being in the jungle. The jungle was where no one else wanted to be and we would set up our operations there.
We basically had it where the NVA were terrified of going there. They were afraid of us. They always had a bounty on our heads and it was especially high for certain individuals amongst us. When it got high enough our command would send that individual home. The tours were supposed to only be six months in duration because they were so intense. It seemed that mine were always longer than that. When I was back in the States I would be called off onto other missions. I was married for five years and we were together for less than six months during that timeframe. That was tough.
What is the thought process in the mission and the toughest part of it?
MK: I never hesitated to take out anyone. If that was my job I never hesitated. My longest kill shot was over 1,000 meters but most of them were much closer than that. Killing hand to hand was definitely a lot more messy. It is extremely difficult killing someone trained in close contact. I remember in one particular instance I came up from behind, put my knee in his spine, and while they were falling slit their throat. I only had to do that particular movement once fortunately. One of the older guys told me that worked but it was the messiest thing he had seen in his life. He told me that I wasn’t as efficient as I could’ve been. There were easier ways to kill. He showed me what he’d done in WWII and it made sense.
Is there a psychological impact with that?
MK: The only way I can explain close contact kills is that they feel as if someone has reached deep inside you and pulled something out. It doesn’t matter if it's with a rifle, pistol, knife, or breaking someone's neck. The feeling is still the same where you feel like you’ve lost a bit of yourself. Statistically, the average ground troop in a firefight expends almost 3,000 rounds for each enemy that’s hit. On average, a sniper kills 2.7 for every three rounds shot. If you are in the crosshairs of a sniper you are dead. Special Operations assault-men carry about the same ratio as a sniper because it’s how we are trained and when we are killing we’re usually much closer to the enemy than your regular ground troop. The kill ratio is higher and the psychological impacts much greater.
The guys don’t typically sit around and tell war stories. We actually lost more people in my team to suicide than we did to combat after Vietnam. When they came back to the States they couldn’t handle the heaviness of it all. We had one guy from our unit that was really put together and he went out one day and hit a building going over 80 mph. They figured that he was still accelerating upon impact. He purposely did that. He bought the most expensive sports car he could and literally buried himself inside the car when he hit the wall. I had a guy come to me when we were getting ready to deploy and told me that he wanted to join my team and go overseas. He said he hadn’t killed anyone in so long and he missed the feeling (laughs). I told him that he needed a psychological evaluation (laughs).
“Special Operations assault-men carry about the same ratio as a sniper because it’s how we are trained and when we are killing we’re usually much closer to the enemy than your regular ground troop. The kill ratio is higher and the psychological impacts much greater. The guys don’t typically sit around and tell war stories. We actually lost more people in my team to suicide than we did to combat after Vietnam. When they came back to the States they couldn’t handle the heaviness of it all.”
What type of work did you do after military life?
MK: I worked for about 25 years in other capacities after I got out. I did some commercial work with a heavy military influence after I left the military. I was usually consulting but then I started my own companies. I was doing things for other people and making them hundreds of millions of dollars. It wasn’t that I wasn’t being paid really well but the fact that I was tired of working with people who were managers who knew nothing. I understood that they were well-connected managers but they didn’t have a clue in the world what they were talking about. I got very tired of repeating myself to them. I remember one company in particular and a guy called me to take me out to dinner. My efforts alone are what paid all the executive bonuses that year for this particular group. I am talking about millions and millions of dollars.
I had zero help from the company and they resented me for even trying. I had all of this interference and was still successful at what I was doing. The owner of that corporation was a guy by the name of Terry Kohler. He is the owner of Kohler Plumbing and that was his smallest industry. He was a multi-billionaire and was considered Daddy Warbucks for the Republican Party. I got to know him because I was sitting in a meeting where he came up with an asinine idea (laughs). He had all these “yes people” sitting around him. He was looking at drop-ship deliveries where he would buy a fleet of heavy transport planes. He wanted to buy 20 of them and use them to pick up and drop off shipments all the way around the world. He was talking about a lot of money. He asked if anyone disagreed with his idea.
The type of personality he had was one that you could disagree but you had better be right (laughs). I had met him 20 minutes before the meeting, knew who he was, and really didn’t care. I raised my hand and said, “That’s the dumbest idea I have ever heard in my life.” You could hear the air leave the room as everyone sucked gasped. He just stared at me because I don’t think he’d ever had anyone talk to him like that. I told him, “Let me tell you why I say that. You are looking at this billion-dollar figure. What if you went to UPS and asked them what they would charge you to do that? UPS has the jets and they will maintain them as well. They have the licensing along with having the pilots for the jets. They have the infrastructure that you haven't even accounted for in your budget. It already exists and they will give it to you cheaper than what you can buy your fuel to make that circuit. You are talking quantity on an international basis.”
That was my recommendation. He sat there and thought about it for a minute and then asked those in the room why they didn’t come up with that (laughs). He invited me out to a board meeting dinner that night. I arrived early because I thought I was the low man on the totem pole. We sat down and started talking before everyone got there. The conversation shifted to me being LDS (Church of Latter-Day Saints) and working with youth. We talked for about 40 minutes before other people showed up. I got up and moved when they started arriving. Terry looked at me and asked, “Where the hell are you going?” I just told him that this was his board meeting and I was planning on sitting towards the back of the room. He just stated that I was to sit next to him because he enjoyed talking to me. There were other people that were bumped out of their positions and it made several of them mad. It was about halfway through dinner and someone was emphasizing a point with some colorful language when Terry stood up. He clinked his goblet and said, “I have talked with some people here and I know for a fact that they are religious. They don’t appreciate that kind of language and neither do I. If you want to use that kind of language you are excused from the table.” He sat back down.
Everyone in the room was now on pins and needles because they knew each other really well. They figured out that it was the new guy that Terry was referring to. I was the really religious guy sitting next to the boss. Terry and I became pretty good friends after that night. It was at Christmas that I heard a remark, “Have you thanked your boss for your job?” I thought about it and wrote Terry a letter. I said, “I know you hire thousands of people and provide them with a job. I just wanted to say thank you for all you provide for everybody. I want to thank you for my job as well.” It was a couple of hours later I got a return response from Terry. He said, “I have been working at this business for years. I know my father was never thanked. I have never had anyone thank me in all these years for a job.” I was dumbfounded. He told me how touched he was by the letter. He had inherited the company from his dad and built it to what it is today. I also came up with this idea about stabilizing one of his markets that was cyclical. He thought it was a great notion and wanted me to go ahead and push it forward. He told his staff to make sure I had everything I needed to get it done. Their idea of making sure I had what I needed was to put in a roadblock every time I turned around. They hated the idea that the boss was talking to me because I was a “nobody” contractor.
In spite of all of that, I was wildly successful and the cyclical nature of the process had taken a downturn due to the implementation of some of my processes. There weren’t going to be any bonuses that year. I thought that they would share part of it with me. Everybody now at the top gets their regular bonus which was thousands of dollars. A guy named Jay comes in and he was two levels below Terry. He knew Terry really well and met with him a lot of the time. We went out to dinner and I ordered a steak. We were talking and he started chewing me out. I stopped him finally and I asked him what he was talking about. He began to ask me if I knew how many people I embarrassed at that meeting. I interrupted him again and ask him if he realized that I was the reason he was getting that bonus.
I knew he had bought a new $150,000 car with the bonus. It was my effort that got him his bonus and I told him that all of them had done everything they could to get me to fail. I told him he could have my resignation and I got up from the dinner table and left. I was in Toronto and was packing up. I had never really seen Toronto so I figured I would just do some sightseeing while I was there. Terry’s right-hand man called me and wants to know why I had tendered my resignation. I didn’t really want to blame Jay or anything. I told him I had just finished having a dinner where I was getting my ass chewed out for completing business. Every one of those jerks tried to stand in my way and made sure it didn’t happen. I told him I was the reason that he got his bonus and I was out of there. He told me that Terry would be really sad to hear that I was leaving. I told him to let Terry know that I really enjoyed working with him and that I wanted to thank him. I arrived back home and four days later I received a call from another guy under Terry. He told me the contract that I was working with Boeing was having problems.
They were demanding a cancellation of the contract because I was gone. I told him I wasn't working on a contract with Boeing. I was trying to help them with a contract but they kept killing it. They wanted me to go back to work for them or they would tear up this agreement. I told them I wasn’t sure and didn’t know what would make it worth my while. I wasn’t interested in working for any of them. We talked for a bit and ended up with me agreeing to work for them. I would report to no one and would give them a monthly report. I set a limit of six months on the job. I met with Boeing and explained what happened in gentle terms. This guy named Frank was the Boeing Inc. engineer and I talked to him. He wanted me to train somebody. I asked if he had someone in mind. They did and thought he would be a good consultant for the company. I agreed to train him for the last three months of the contract. I worked for seven or eight months for them. I decided that with all the money I made from them I would start my own company. I used Boeing as the wedge because I knew I could get some great consulting work. This led me to other areas where my background is advanced research and development. My net worth on paper was about $56 million before the crash. When the crash happened I was overseas and it had a big domino effect so I started rebuilding.
How much has your spirituality helped you in your life being LDS?
MK: I didn’t join the church until after I had finished my third tour in Vietnam. If you look at it from a spiritual standpoint it saved me in just about every way you can think of. I was emotionally a wreck but I had always believed in Christ. It’s funny because even during the gang years, I had my daily conversation with God. It helped me become more acquainted with Him and who He really is. The love He has for us is amazing and the acceptance allowed me to come to some level of peace with the background that I had. My background is a little bit different than most people. The first time that I was shot at I was 9 years old and the first time I saw someone bleed out with their throat cut I was 15 years old. There is a passage in one of the scriptures that talks about being led through the more fertile parts of the wilderness. The interpretation of that scripture is that everyone goes through the wilderness. Do you want to go through the better parts or the real rocky parts? I know firsthand what some of the really rocky crap looks like and feels like. When I take a look at life my understanding of faith has helped me cope with a lot of death and destruction.
When did you meet your wife?
MK: My first wife and I were married for about five years. We only saw each other for about six months during that entire time. When we finally had a chance to spend more than two or three days together we discovered we didn’t like each other very much (laughs). We had been married for all the wrong reasons. I got a divorce from her. I was in and out of the hospitals still doing a lecture tour when I met my second wife. I had joined the church and was a fairly new member. We were married for 15 years and had 5 kids. Her family was devout Catholic and when she joined my church they blamed me for that. They hated me for that. She came from a very large family and was finally convinced by her family that she didn’t want to be married to someone that was LDS. She wanted to go home and leave me at that point.
I went on a couple of blind dates and discovered I was really happy being single. I thought I didn’t need any of that relationship crap. I was introduced to Catherine after I had been divorced for about nine months. We got married almost a year after my divorce to my second wife. She had quite an extensive medical background. I give her the credit for keeping me alive. There have been several occasions with the different health problems I have that I should have died. We have been married for 26 years now. She came from a very abusive relationship. We both had a lot of baggage and worked through it over the years. Her ex-husband never wanted anything to do with her four kids. I always accepted them as all my own. My kids have always accepted that they have two moms. We both just consider all of the children as our nine kids. We have sixteen grandkids.
What was the impact on you with the turmoil going on in our nation at the time of Vietnam?
MK: I could feel a lot of turmoil when I came back from Vietnam. You could go to a Padres game and if you went in uniform it didn’t cost you anything. My dress uniform has a lot of medals and most people think it's fairly impressive. I went to one of the games and I was just heading into one of the gates. There was a dad that was probably younger than me with a young boy. I saw him motioning his son to come up to me. This kid came up and spit on my pant leg. It took me by surprise and by the time I was ready to react they had melted into the crowd. I would probably be in prison today if I had caught them. I was so angry at that dad for having his kid do that. It became pretty common that people hated military but the special forces was a target. This wasn’t the majority of the nation but a small outspoken part. They were making a big deal out of nothing.
Walter Cronkite is the one who turned the tide of the war against us. He started reporting and showing the deaths of people being carried off the battlefield. I had one of the guys from one of the major magazines ask me a question when I was over there. I asked him if he wanted to see an atrocity and he replied that he did. I told him to suit up and we would take a PBR (Patrol Boat, River). I agreed that I would take him up the river for half a day to a village that was wiped out and I would tell him everything I knew about it. He said, “That would be so cool. Can I take pictures?” I told him, “If you want. The bodies have been moved but there are still signs of the carnage.” He said, “Which American troops did it?” I told him it wasn’t the American but the NVA because they wanted to get people's attention. They would go in and slaughter an entire village to do that. I told him that happened all the time. He said, “North?” I said, “Yes, North Vietnamese.” He informed me they couldn't run a story like that because it wasn’t an American atrocity.
I always felt bad for the common people in the villages because all they wanted was to raise their kids and be good parents. They wanted to raise their livestock and grow their crops. The North wouldn’t leave them alone and we wouldn’t leave them alone. They were always caught in the middle and it was because of the politicians. I talked with enough captured prisoners through interpreters and it boiled down to their politicians wanted to run the war and so did ours. The reality is that we were dealing with two very distinctly different countries. It should have been like Korea where we had a version of North Vietnam and South Vietnam. They should have had a border and everybody would have packed up their war gear and went the hell home. Nobody wanted to do that in politics. I remember towards the end of the war this guy, Whitey Wier who was a commander and he was a really funny guy. He knew his stuff. We got a message that we weren’t to fire unless fired upon. We were in three, five and seven man patrols going deep into enemy territory. If we got into a firefight we would be confronting 50-60 people. Those were normal odds for us.
So, they were asking us to wait for someone to stick a gun in your face and fire before we could return fire. Whitey sent a flash message to the Pentagon and said, “We received your instructions from the memo and I am pulling all of my operators out of country.” He got a message back and the Pentagon basically wanted to know what he was doing. He sent another message over and said, “You know our missions, you know what we do, and you know the risks we take. You just made the stakes totally unacceptable so I am pulling everybody out on my authority.” Some of the people back at the Pentagon thought he didn’t have that authority to do that. He knew that under our orders we could do just about anything we damn well wanted. They sent back a memo to all Special Operations troops. It said that the memo didn’t apply to all Special Operations (laughs). They wanted the papers to say that we were withdrawing and were the kind, friendly people. We weren’t going to shoot unless shot at and that was to be the story. It was a sad state of affairs. Fortunately we had a command that backed us.
“I always felt bad for the common people in the villages because all they wanted was to raise their kids and be good parents. They wanted to raise their livestock and grow their crops. The North wouldn’t leave them alone and we wouldn’t leave them alone. They were always caught in the middle and it was because of the politicians.”
How do you feel looking back at the conflict?
MK: Politically, the war was a soup sandwich. I believe that we were there for the correct reasons. The people of today have forgotten what Communism really is. When you see it operating it certainly isn’t Bernie Sanders Socialist B.S. Everyone just can’t get something for free. You’ve got half a percent of people on the top and the rest are serfs and slaves. If you look at Vietnam they went the Communist route and how many people now have anything worth a single penny? People want to hold up Cuba as an example. They want to show these cute classic cars as an example of prosperity. They have those cute classic cars because they cannot get any other car worth anything (laughs). I always felt like we were there for the right reason and if the politicians would have just gotten out of our way we would’ve been able to do our job. There would be a North Vietnam and South Vietnam. The political side of it with the south being so corrupt, could’ve been sorted out. They didn’t need our support to be propped up. I have always felt that the middle person like the villagers that just wanted to be a family were left out. I have been asked if I want to go back and I realize that I am happy here.
My kids have visited Vietnam and Thailand. I am glad that they are able to get along but the tragedy is how many people died. I lay it at the feet of the politicians like Jim Kerry. He stirred up a tremendous amount of animosity towards the soldiers and still tries to do that crap. His service record was mostly B.S. He was over there and did get 3 Purple Hearts that he put in for himself. He was never hurt seriously enough to get anything close to those. I was blown up twice, fragged in my back, shot in my leg and each time I turned down the Purple Heart. I knew people who had legs missing and that were seriously injured that didn’t get one. I didn’t realize until years later how badly I was injured. The guys that have a Purple Heart in Special Forces have most definitely earned it. It’s not for a scratch while being out in the field. It’s generally for being shot multiple times. I went out on operations the very next day after being wounded. If I was to take a Purple Heart for my injuries I felt it would dishonor those who had been seriously injured.
If you could tell civilians that could help take away a stereotype of the Vietnam War, what would you tell them?
MK: I would have to say most people don’t even really know about the Vietnam War. Like I said before, Walter Cronkite won the war for the liberals. The war was an evil, nasty war and so was everybody involved with it. That statement and mindset just isn’t true. My take away isn’t so much the Vietnam War and it’s issues. If you look at people in Israel, men and women have to serve a certain amount of time in the military. How do people feel about their country? How do the Israelis feel about their country? Do they speak badly of it ? Do they try and integrate it at every single turn? Do they try to be the bad guys of the world? The answer to all those questions is, “No.” I think they have a realization of what their country means. You have a very small percentage of people going into the military in the United States along with a small percentage that have served in the past.
The people who have been in the armed forces have a deep and abiding love for their country. The percentage of those who have served and don’t have that profound admiration for our military is minimal. You have to look at what we do worldwide and what we do to help without going in for profit. Is there a difference that we make? If people are so stupid as to not see what the politicians are doing with the border issue then I don’t know how to fix that. Every single country has a border for a reason. We are the only country that allows illegal aliens to stay in our country. The majority of other countries go after people that have stayed past their visa or come in illegally. I keep wanting to ask all the politicians what the word “illegal” means or the definition. If you don’t like what's there on the books then change the laws.
They don’t want to do that because at the end of the day they simply want votes. They are hoping that the culture will change enough by having illegal immigrants. Years ago when immigrants came they had to assimilate to our culture as a requirement. We also take on some of their qualities too. How have we changed the laws? We have to have voting in 20 different languages. Why? When you go into countries like China or Taiwan you have to conduct business during business hours in their native language. If you are an American and you go in you will need an interpreter. They do speak English but you still need an interpreter during business hours.
When you look at countries that don’t have people assimilating, their culture begins to change. If you look at France they have become mostly Muslim with a lot of hotspots that are issues. Germany is having problems because they're not enforcing their own laws on Muslims who believe in Sharia Law. The Muslim groups are wanting their own laws enforced in Germany. They need to tell them to go back to their country if they don’t like the laws being enforced where they are. That shouldn't be on the table for debate. The people coming in here illegally have broken the law and it shouldn’t be our issue. Eisenhower enforced the law many years back and deported thousands of illegals that weren’t here legally. He saw it as a black and white matter of legal or illegal.
How did you decide to get a service dog?
MK: I talked with several doctors and they agreed that I had a serious case of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). They did some evaluations and determined that a dog could help. I talked with my kids and told them the doctors said I had PTSD. They all said, “Dad, you’re the only one that thinks you don’t have it.” I signed up for some courses to get the process started. I had always thought of service dogs as those who were a military dog sniffing for explosives. I checked around and couldn’t find anything. I contacted one of the places the doctors had recommended, which was Labs for Liberty, and they told me they had an extra puppy. Mickey came from a breeder they hadn’t used before and he definitely has his own personality.
He has a bit of an independent streak and loves to play games which are puppy games. If you throw the frisbee he gets it but won’t bring it back because he wants you to chase him (laughs). He is slowly getting out of that stage. I was at the park and he was not wanting to get loaded up. I said, “Fine!” I started to load up and just drive off to see what he would do. He was wagging his tail and chasing the car. We went for about ten miles and he just kept running along. He was wanting exercise. He finally jumped in the back and slept. I have only done that one time because there was no traffic and I knew it wouldn’t be harmful to him. He actually loved doing it. He loves to just trot for exercise.
What would you say to other people that are looking at Labs for Liberty or other organizations looking for a service dog?
MK: I know Joan Nold (co-founder) at Labs for Liberty and she does a phenomenal job. The ranch they have is a perfect setup for the dogs. I was quite shocked when I went up there to start the training. You have your own apartment with a kitchen and living area. I think that helps quite a bit. That helps so much because there are times I just need to get away from people (laughs). You aren’t stuck for a week with a bunch of people since you have your evenings with the dog getting to know each other. They make it a very enjoyable experience and they also take you out with the dog which is a good thing.
I typically do not like crowds at all but we will go shopping and he will run point. He will nose people out of the way or check my six to keep people from getting too close, He doesn’t let people bump into me. He doesn’t growl but just becomes a barrier between them and myself. It’s funny when he has a service vest on the tops and the side it says, “Service dog, do not pet.” I constantly have people that want to come up and pet him. I have allowed it but he will shy away from people. I will tell him he’s okay so they can pet him. He doesn't like people petting him when he is wearing his vest. He knows he’s supposed to be working.
How long was the process before you got him?
MK: Labs for Liberty went through several handlers trying to teach him different things so it was quite a process. They get very in depth with making sure these dogs are properly trained. Joan and I talked then it was six or seven months after that before I was able to have him in my possession. He has calmed down quite a bit from when I first got him. He will bark and run sometimes but now is much more attentive to me. I think as he grows and gets older he will continue to gain more discipline. My wife will say, “He’s your dog and you need to take him for a walk.” I don’t even get up from the chair before she's got the leash and taking him for a walk (laughs). She loves him.
How have you felt yourself improve since you’ve had him?
MK: Mickey certainly creates a calming effect within me. He makes tense things a lot more relaxing for me. It’s typical of him to go to my wife Catherine if I say “walk.” If he goes with her he knows there will be some play time. If he goes with me he knows it will be a slower walk and no playing on the walk. When we are in the house he normally comes to me unless Catherine is on the floor watching TV he will go over to her. He can be a rambunctious lab for sure but I love him.
What are you doing now while trying to stay retired?
MK: I have about 65 patents in a variety of different areas. I am the chief nerd and enjoy working in other areas as well. Material Science, microchips and advanced carbon fibers are some I am involved with as well. I work with Senator Lee on several different things. I also work with Special Forces veterans to help them get their benefits. It’s stressful at times to work with them. When they talk about their memories that are bothering them it brings up my old memories as well. I have been asked if it’s worth it to help them. I’m constantly being reminded of my old stuff. I know that if I don’t help them then they may not get any help.
We’d like to thank Mike Kipp for sharing his story with us. We know that Vietnam was a tumultuous time in our country, a time in which these warriors didn’t receive their deserved praise. Many of them were treated horribly by the American public upon return and while we can’t do anything to remediate that transgression, we can work to further their legacies by properly capturing their stories. We can all make a difference by individually sharing these legacy pieces, ensuring that we never forget the war-fighters who fought with little support from their own nation.
By spending time and gaining an understanding of the human being that either volunteered or was drafted into service, we can all become more compassionate through that knowledge. Men like Mike were the tip of the spear, an unconventional group that was the formation of something that now serves us at the highest level every single day. They are, in many ways, the founding fathers of a new breed of guerilla warriors capable of creating havoc and eliminating an enemy that does not distinguish itself from the rest of the population. And for that, we can be forever grateful. It takes a uniquely capable person to accept such responsibilities. Thanks again to Joan Nold at Labs for Liberty for making the introduction to Mike and Mickey. Check them out at www.labsforliberty.org, on Instagram: @labsforliberty, and Facebook: @LabsforLiberty.